An Alternative to Cesar Millan?
Cesar Millan, Dog Whisperer: An Alternative Approach
copyright © 2007 Jo Jacques
Cesar Millan and his television show have become very popular among the dog-owning public. Millan seems to have been made for the screen, with a charisma that makes some folks call him the ‘Dr.Phil of Dogs’. However, there IS a disclaimer at the beginning of his show, warning those at home not to try the same methods – have you ever wondered why?
“To call his operation a psychology center is a total paradox,” says veterinary behaviorist Nicholas Dodman, director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University’s Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine and author of “Dogs Behaving Badly”. “I think, like a bullfighter, he understands how to approach and work around a dog, but thereafter he stops. He doesn’t understand separation anxiety. I doubt he knows what obsessive-compulsive behavior is. Basically, with a smile, he’s going to war with these dogs. Imagine if there was a new Dr. Phil for children, and he said, ‘If your kid is playing too many video games, get a big paddle and whack him on the head.’ People would be incensed!”
Millan’s methods rely on a theory built around short-term studies of captive wolf packs in the 1940’s – the Alpha/Dominance theory. There were a lot of serious flaws in that theory. First of all, it drew all of its information about behavior from a very small portion of wolf life – then basically took this tiny portion as gospel. A lot of the behaviors and rituals were wildly misinterpreted, and for some reason, the researchers decided that that these rituals and behaviors were totally valid across species (i.e. dog-dog and dog-human). But, as Dr. Ian Dunbar, veterinarian and author, states, “Saying ‘I want to learn how to interact with my dog so I’ll learn from the wolves’ makes about as much sense as saying, ‘I want to improve my parenting — let’s see how the chimps do it!’ ”
Fast-forward – researchers at Yale and UC Berkeley spent 30 years observing dog packs and their hierarchy. This research showed something very different: mainly, ‘alpha’ does NOT have anything to do with physical dominance – it has to do with control of resources, and does not include physical displays of strength. Let’s take the so-called ‘alpha roll’ – which, by the way, is not a forced thing among either dogs or wolves. A lower ranking dog may roll over an show his belly as a sign of submission; but, in a wolf pack, a forced roll is only done to another animal if the intent is to kill it. Guess how that makes our dogs feel when we try an alpha roll? Now, guess how many people have ended up in the emergency room with multiple bites to their faces after attempting one too many alpha rolls…
So what are the alternatives to traditional training methods? According to recent research on the efficacy of various dog training methods, positive reinforcement-based training results in faster learning, and longer retention of learned behaviors (without the need for ‘retraining’ on a regular basis) than either traditional force-based methods OR a combination of traditional and reinforcement-based. Plus, it strengthens the bond you have with your dog. You really can’t argue with statistics like that!
Many people are under the impression that ‘positive’ means ‘permissive’ when it comes to positive reinforcement training – it doesn’t. A good positive-reinforcement trainer uses two portions of the learning quadrant: positive reinforcement – when you reward the dog for doing what you like, in order to increase the chance of the behavior repeating and negative punishment – when you take away a good thing, usually your attention or the chance for a reward, in order to reduce the chance of a behavior happening. A positive reinforcement trainer isn’t just a ‘cookie pusher’ either – while they may use food rewards in order to train a particular behavior, they quickly phase out the food in favor of using ‘life rewards’ – physical things that the dog wants, like going outside, or being allowed to jump up on the sofa. In this way, you are acting as a benevolent leader – someone who controls the resources, which helps keep order and harmony in your ‘pack’. This combination of gentle leadership and reinforcement of wanted behaviors engages you and your dog in a training experience that’s fun for BOTH and helps to cement good behaviors on a daily basis with your dog.
![Reblog this post [with Zemanta]](http://img.zemanta.com/reblog_e.png?x-id=e93acc44-3b59-4616-8333-3e2b7d1181b6)
52 Comments »
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URL
This seems like a rather short-sighted take on Caesar Millan, and doesn’t offer any real information that I can see. First I would imagine Caesar’s disclaimer is due to the fact that we live in a society with a zeal for litigation. Second there are many things on TV that shouldn’t be mimicked by people who aren’t experts, and your ominous allusion comes off as a cheap shot. I’ve noticed similar disclaimers on shows like “Emergency Vets” ; does that mean their is something sinister behind veterinary medicine?
The veterinarians quoted don’t seem like they have any first hand experience with Millan’s methods, and are just going on their presumptions regarding Alpha-dominance theory; which by the way seems a more appropriate basis for canine behavior given the fact that the studies were done on captive animals. Are we trying to pretend that our dogs are not captive?
Also, very little of what Caesar does could be classified as “physical dominance”, and is in fact resource control, which is exactly what your Yale researchers espouse. The positive folks seem to be anti-touch in any manner when anyone who has objectively observed dogs interact can see that touch is a vital part canine communication.
I would agree that it’s very difficult to argue with the statistics offered in paragraph five, particularly seeing as you didn’t give any. You cited generalities with no sources.
I think that Millan ‘gets it’, where a lot of “positive” trainers are more interested in how their interactions with dogs make them, and their paying customers, feel than they are with what their dog’s get from the experience. After all, I’m sure the Yale researchers saw very little unbalance during their study of dogs packs, and yet unbalance rife throughout the companion dog community because people want to smother their dogs with unconditional love.
Overall, I think very few of the negatives you have cited are applicable to Caesar Millan’s actual methods. It seems like more of a sweeping gathering of generalizations aimed at a popular figurehead.
Dogman,
Many vets actually do have first-hand experience with Milan’s methods; some vets were contacted by NG to view and comment on the show before it went on the air, as well as after the litigation concerning the dog psychology center. The only off shoot of this was the disclaimer; these vets, as well as other veterinary behaviorists, applied behaviorists and behavioral trainers around the country are now ‘cleaning up’ after Millan’s methods.
Millan does use physical dominance. Watch his body language, and don’t forget how he physically will hold a dog to the floor until it stops struggling and trying to bite him — what is that if not a physical dominance move?
Folks who use the science of behavior in order to train — ‘positive folks’ as you call them — are not anti-touch. On the contrary, we are very PRO touch, but not in the way that CM uses touch. We do not use touch as a means to suppress behavior or to mold a dog into position. If we used touch as a means to get a behavior, that touch may become part of the cue for the dog — not bad unless the dog is across the street and you really can’t reach him (unless you have Go-Go-Gadjet arms, which I don’t, unfortunately!). And, if one uses touch for supressing a behavior, you run the risk of the dog becoming very wary of your hands — not a good thing at all. So, how do us ‘positive folk’ use touch? We use touch as a reward, which is what it should be.
Resource control — at its best — also includes management of the environment in order to give a dog a chance to be successful rather than unsuccessful, and this type of resource control is used by us ‘positive folks’ all the time. We ARE interested in the what the dog gets from the experience — to us, that’s what it’s all about. We want a happy working relationship, not one were the dog feels it HAS to do something or else suffer the consequences. It’s all about teaching a dog to make the right choice in order to get what it wants, as when the wrong choice is made it gets nothing — that’s true control of resources.
As for the sources in paragraph 5, here you go (you will need a PubMed account or access to a college library in order to read, however):
Hilby, E.F., Rooney, N.J., & Bradshaw, J.W.S. (2004). Dog training methods: Their use, effectiveness
and interaction with behaviour and welfare. Animal Welfare,13, 63-69
Jones, A.C. & Josephs, R.A. (2005). Are we dog’s best friend? Predicting canine cortisol. Current
Issues and Research in Veterinary Behavioral Medicine. West Lafayette, Indiana: Purdue University Press,
194-197
Reisner, I.R. (2003). Differential diagnosis and management of human-directed aggression in dogs.
The Veterinary Clinic Small Animal Practice, 33, 303-320
As well, The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) recently released a position statement on training, which received some press from AAHA (American Animal Hospital Association–looked to as the “gold
standard” for quality veterinary care):
http://newsmanager.commpartners.com/aahatknt/issues/2008-01-23.html#0
Dogman
Ceasar Milan’s show is darn right scary. As a dog trainer I have clients thinking this must be the way to do it.
NO! We are on the same wave length and do not want our students ruining a bond and relationship and ending up with a fearful and aggressive dog. There shouldn’t have to be disclaimers if the teaching is kind and humane.
An update — Here’s the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior’s Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf
Key Points:
“The AVSAB recommends that veterinarians not refer clients to trainers or behavior consultants who coach and advocate dominance hierarchy theory and the subsequent confrontational training that follows from it.
Instead, the AVSAB emphasizes that animal training, behavior prevention strategies, and behavior modification programs should follow the scientifically based guidelines of positive reinforcement, operant conditioning, classical conditioning, desensitization, and counter conditioning.
The AVSAB recommends that veterinarians identify and refer clients only to trainers and behavior consultants who understand the principles of learning theory and who focus on reinforcing desirable behaviors and removing the reinforcement for undesirable behaviors.”
It is jealousy of the success of Cesar Millan on the part of the Positive method only crowd….Plain and Simple.
Cesar never talks about wolf packs and occasionally uses alpha rolls on a few extreme cases of dogs out of control…but amazingly…his detractors ALWAYS focus on the word wolf and the use of alpha rolls. I’ve never seen Cesar mention the word wolf or wolves until this past Friday when he was working with a family that had 2 wolf hybrids as pets. He uses positive reinforcement methods more often than negative methods, but of course, his jealous detractors will overlook that, because it goes against their agenda of defaming Mr Millan.
If you positive only trainers can put on a show of dog training that gets as good or better results than does Cesar Millan than go for it! Stop being so jealous!! Get over yourselves!
Because his show gets more popular with every new season of shows, I guess we will have to get used to seeing more and more articles putting down Cesar Millan.
Me? I’m not jealous at all. There are plenty of dogs to go around for all trainers. What I am is worried: many clients call me after they’ve tried Mr. Millan’s techniques and been bitten.
You said it — it’s a show. It’s all scripted and done and redone for TV.
There’s actually two shows out there now by positive trainers: It’s Me or the Dog with Victoria Stillwell, and Underdog to Wonderdog with Andrea Arden.
Here’s a link to a televised interview with Mr. Millan that you may find interesting…
http://www.komonews.com/home/video/37440019.html?video=pop&t=a
Nothing wrong with the interview but of course as I stated above they focus on extreme cases in the videos to make a news story that fits the agenda of the jealous positive trainer. Those dogs on the video would have been put to sleep were it not for Cesar.
They could have put any one of hundreds of other clips of him using positive methods but they choose to put the focus on extreme cases that aversive methods were necessary. All of the dogs shown already had bitten their owners.
And you mention above that you’ve been contacted by owners that use Millan Methods and were bitten. Why would anyone use aversive techniques on dogs that have never bitten before? That is certainly something that Cesar never does or advocates.
Every positive trainer that posts on the internet, that dislikes Cesar, always claims that they get several clients that were bitten by dogs that never bit until using Cesar’s methods. Its always generalizations, no examples, and that is why I don’t believe you or the other so-called experts about this. Any good lawyer could sue him and win, the disclaimer on the show would not prevent a lawsuit. In many states, those disclaimers are meaningless yet I’ve never seen a lawsuit by a viewer of his program. Yes, their was a suit filed regarding an incident that happened at his Dog Center and it occurred when Cesar was on the road filming his show.
Please give one concrete example from one of your clients that was bitten. I am trying to make sense of using aversive techniques on dogs that have never bitten before. What behavior were they trying to modify? Which technique [that you attribute to Cesar] did they use that caused the dog to bite?
The show is not scripted. If it was, they would edit out when dogs bite Cesar, their owner, or other dogs and they don’t edit out that.
Its too bad “Its Me or the Dog” rarely takes on aggressive dogs. I saw an episode with Cooper, but did not see any progress with his behavior on the show or get any long term updates as to how Cooper is progressing.
The only other extreme episode had an extremely aggressive Cocker Spaniel that Victoria agreed should be Put to Sleep and that was done.
I found Underdog to Wonderdog to be a boring show so won’t be watching that one anymore.
How sadly uninformed this RB is. There is scientific evidence against aversives. Aggression does, indeed, beget aggression. I would also recommend reading Murray Sidman’s seminal work, “Aggression and its Fallout.” The aversives practiced by “trainers” like Millan are outdated and even if they work in the short term they inevitably fail in the long term. There is no jealousy from positive trainers, only the desire to make life better for dogs and their owners. Millan has, indeed, been sued, even by his former business partner. That information is readily available on the web.
To use aggression on an aggressive dog only produces more aggression and can ruin the dog for life, resulting in the dog being put down.
Obviously, this person is a fan who is blinded by publicity. Publicity is bought and paid for and it doesn’t mean a whole lot when it comes to quality as those who buy any sort of merchandise can attest. Dogs aren’t merchandise. They’re living, breathing sentient beings.
I can’t imagine using 30 year old dog training techniques any more than I’d take a dog to a veterinarian practicing 30 year old medical methodologies. Veterinarians can now treat many illnesses that couldn’t be treated before and veterinary behavior is a science based field.
Anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a dog trainer. Sadly, it’s the dogs and their owners who suffer and the behaviorists and positive trainers who have to clean up the mess left in their wake. I don’t think anyone needs that much business. How much better to use positive methods and not have to deal with the fallout.
Too bad their are those who are so involved in the past they won’t open their eyes and see the present. What, I wonder, do they fear? Why the need to be “dominant?” How sad for all involved….
You must not have read either of my posts very carefully or watched too many episodes of the Dog Whisperer. Never in either post do I advocate using Aversive methods on most dogs and neither does Cesar Millan.
It is the extremely aggressive dog that positive methods don’t always work and a positive trainer will say, “There are lots of nice dogs in shelters that will be euthanised, this dog is not worth saving and I recommend that it be PTS.” Those are the cases that I am referring to.
Millan has been sued. I posted about that above. I guess you missed that too. Now I guess I have to give the details which you probably won’t read either. [Millan was away from his center shooting his series at the time of the incident. Cesar was kind enough to let that producer (not a business partner) use his facilities free of charge with his own dog trainer. The Producer's trainer, not a Cesar Millan employee, left the dog on the treadmill unattended where it became exhausted and was severely injured.]
I STATED that Millan has never been sued by a VIEWER that watched his show, used his techniques, and was bitten. Believe me, there are plenty of Lawyers that would love to take on a case against Cesar Millan with deep pockets and they could also make a name for themself if they were successful.
Read a book? That’s your proof that positive methods work in all cases and that aversive methods never work or only are short term fixes? How many dogs has Murray Sidman rehabilitated? From what I found he only does research, laboratory experiments, and writes journal articles and books.
How about directing me to a hands on class (2-4 weeks) anywhere in the United States that works with extremely aggressive dogs and uses positive methods ONLY. I can gather a group of up to 100 professional trainers to attend something like the above and it would be very lucrative for them monetarily. And they will get the satisfaction that they changed the minds of other professional trainers and will be helping to make the lives of the dogs they rehabilitate better. Its a win-win situation for all!
Make one thing clear: I am NOT asking for a class that teaches positive methods. We advocate and use positive methods for most ordinary cases, as does Cesar Millan. (That’s why I asked for the concrete example above in my 2nd post. It does not make any sense to me that someone would use an aversive method on a non-aggressive dog.)
I want a class that we could go to a shelter and pick the most extremely aggressive dogs and the trainer(s) can show us hands on how to rehabilitate these dogs without using any aversive methods. I don’t want any excuses from the trainer like, “This dog is too far gone to be rehabilitated.”
Better yet, get a Positive trainer like your adored Ian Dunbar, or any other trainer of your choice, to put on a television show or produce DVDs doing as I suggest….rehabilitation of extremely vicious dogs using positive only methods. Again this would be a win-win situation for the viewers as well as their dogs.
“How about directing me to a hands on class (2-4 weeks) anywhere in the United States that works with extremely aggressive dogs and uses positive methods ONLY.”
First of all, it’s a disservice to both the dog and owner, as well as to the other participants, to put an aggressive dog in a class situation before they’re ready. Any trainer worth their salt — traditional or science-based — would normally insist on private work before entering a class. When it comes to classes, here you go:
Pat Miller’s Peaceable Paws
Pam Dennison’s Camp R.E.W.A.R.D.
Leslie McDevitt’s Control Unleashed program
Kellie Snider (now with the SPCA in Texas)
There’s more, I don’t have my listing with me at this moment…
Pam Dennison wrote a book called Bringing Light to Shadow, a journal of her own experience working with a dog- and human-aggressive dog through to a CGC certification… it’s a good read, one that can show you what it really takes to make a LASTING change.
I wonder about such a vigorous defense of aversives. Try watching that program with the sound turned off and look at the dog’s reaction. Oh, Millan is trying to talk the talk but he is not walking the walk. The sad thing is that anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a dog trainer.
Indeed, there are people like Pat Miller, Pam Dennison and a large number of others who are working with positive methods but to put an aggressive dog into a class? Surely you jest! Jo’s response is right on target.
It’s futile to engage someone who refuses to understand the issues and to accept the science. I’d suggest doing some research but, alas, RB only seems to want to be defensive of an outmoded training method that is destined to fail in the long term.
http://www.dognews.co.uk/animal-organisation-labels-cesar-milans-dog-whisperer-style-training-inhumane/
I guess there is just a lot of us ignorant, uninformed people in this world.
Good luck on your quest to rehabilitate us!
According to this article, “A good positive-reinforcement trainer uses two portions of the learning quadrant.”
My question: Since any given quadrant has *4 SIDES*, where is the other half of the learning quadrant? I much prefer balanced training approaches where all four parts of the learning quadrant are utilized.
I have read “positive only” books. The idea seems to be that you give a dog a cue and wait. Eventually the dog will do whatever you cued him to do, and then you reward him for it. This is great - a wonderful way to teach dogs to DO things. But how does this method apply to teaching a dog to NOT do things? When a person rescues a dog or fosters a dog, and that dog is aggressive, the positive only people seem to think it’s a waste of time to try and rehabilitate him because there are so many other dogs that don’t have the problem that could be saved. Cesar, on the other hand, and his fans, think NO dog is a waste of time. ALL dogs that can be saved (that doesn’t have severe and intractable physical injuries with the accompanying pain) should be saved. He teaches the owners of the dogs how to comport themselves with calmness and assertiveness - not aggression or anger or frustration - those things never work on dogs. And he rehabilitates the dogs so they don’t find every situation fearful. Those who are so adamantly against Cesar probably haven’t read his books or watched more than one of his TV shows. Cesar isn’t a trainer, which they would know if they DID watch. He’s a person who understands how dogs think and what they feel; he’s a “Dog Whisperer.” And all the degrees in the world can’t compare with the experience of growing up amidst a large pack of dogs and learning first-hand how they interact with each other and why - and what the other dogs do about it. Cesar doesn’t put any trainer down - because, among other things, he ISN’T a TRAINER!
As an owner of a Pit bull, I have found his methods to be right on. While I cannot say that my dog is as well behanved as Cesars own “Daddy” I can say that since my family has been following Cesars techniques, both of our dogs behavior have improved. I have put my dogs on their sides when they have mis-behaved. Is it any worse than swatting your child on the bottom? I think not. when you consider how many dogs get “beaten” as a correction I think that rolling a dog is far less detrimental to the relationship. I have never been bitten by my dogs when I have done this, and my dogs don’t seem to harbour any hard feelings against me. As a nurse I know that every doctor has his own approach to treating illness, so it only makes sense that there are many theories on how to train dogs. Just like people, everydog is different and what works for one may not work for the other, and let’s face it, consistant behavior from the owner goes along way. How many of us parents can say that we were always consistent in raising our children.
If You’re Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study
ScienceDaily (Feb. 18, 2009) — In a new, year-long University of Pennsylvania survey of dog owners who use confrontational or aversive methods to train aggressive pets, veterinary researchers have found that most of these animals will continue to be aggressive unless training techniques are modified.
The study, published in the current issue of Applied Animal Behavior Science, also showed that using non-aversive or neutral training methods such as additional exercise or rewards elicited very few aggressive responses.
“Nationwide, the No. 1 reason why dog owners take their pet to a veterinary behaviorist is to manage aggressive behavior,” Meghan E. Herron, lead author of the study, said. “Our study demonstrated that many confrontational training methods, whether staring down dogs, striking them or intimidating them with physical manipulation does little to correct improper behavior and can elicit aggressive responses.”
The team from the School of Veterinary Medicine at Penn suggest that primary-care veterinarians advise owners of the risks associated with such training methods and provide guidance and resources for safe management of behavior problems.
…….
“This study highlights the risk of dominance-based training, which has been made popular by TV, books and punishment-based training advocates,”Herron said. “These techniques are fear-eliciting and may lead to owner-directed aggression.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090217141540.htm
Too bad they don’t show us the survey in your link. These surveys are usually written in a way that they are biased so that the the person or group doing the survey gets the responses that back up up their thesis.
I am not sure which shows they are referring to but Cesar Millan does none of these - “staring down dogs, striking them or intimidating them with physical manipulation.”
I had an extremely fearful dog. After trying some reward techniques that didn’t work, I tried a bit of Cesar type dominance but gently - tight lead, did not let her jump away. In TWO days - five walks - she was calm and remains calm in the face of ourdoor noise today. I also used his techniques to teach her to rest quietly while we eat and to stay away from our food.
For everything else I use positive reinforcement and treats.
She is a joyful, friendly, and virtually fearless dog. You don’t use dominance techniques for everything but where they are appropriate they work like a charm.
It may interest readers to know that in the UK, Victoria has apparently been sued by dog owners on the show, and was ultimately sued for fraudulent misrepresentation by Channel 4 itself - the station that made her show. When the show was in it’s inception, she had an interview and when asked about doing the show, she apparently replied that “I can do that”, and was offered the show. In fact, at the time of making the show four years ago, she had never actually been a dog trainer, which was why the first series was such a disaster.
After receiving massive criticism for the shows content, she then started visiting lots of other trainers to learn how to train dogs. But the channel had never checked if she had ever actually done any dog training.
In court, she was found guily of fraud, and was ordered to pay back any money she had made from the first series, including royalties from her books and dvd’s, but only for the first series - since it was accepted that by the end of the second series she had been training dogs for a year, and so could actually claim that she was now a dog trainer. She has appealed against the decsion, and the appeal has yet to be heard.
Now you know why her show was so suddenly taken off the air and never reappeared.
I agree that CM is not the only method and that each owner should assess their pet and take time to find out what works for them or not, but there is one thing i am certain:
Our society is keen in anthropomorphizing dogs (that means, treating dogs as they were people) and the majority of the owners with problem dogs do tend to treat them like children.
They are a different species.
And for the record, i believe the behavior of wolves would server the needs of a dog better than the behavior of most human owners actually do, just because they (the wolf pack) has closer genetic relation to the dog than us.
I wouldn’t apply blindly everything that CM says, but i do know i would be more disinclined to practice the teachings of some dog behaviorists who thinks that dogs have to be treated like humans.
The best service you can do to a dog, is find out what their breed craves/needs and provide it to them to the best of your means and abilities.
I have never heard of a single CDBC, CAAB or Veterinary Behaviorist saying that ‘dogs have to be treated like humans’. That’s an often-used criticism by CM’s followers — but where did it come from? Not from those who are educated in behavior.
Dogs need to be treated in a way that’s compatible with ANY living, breathing sentient being. And, interestingly enough, humans are also living, breathing, sentient beings… Dogs need to be treated with HUMANELY, with a hearty respect for how they will actually interpret your actions according to THEIR language (NOT yours).
If you have done any research into what a true wolf pack is like (David L. Mech is a great place to start, as is Wolf Park in IN), then you would know that a wolf pack is quite analogous to what’s known a ‘nuclear family’ — a breeding pair heads the family (like Mom and Dad in a human family) and the rest of the pack is made up of their offspring, and their offspring’s offspring. The pack is a cooperative effort, with various members watching cubs while others hunt, for example.
A wolf would NEVER ‘alpha roll’ or ‘dominance down’ another wolf. Even with an outsider to the pack, you won’t see this kind of behavior UNLESS one actually intended to kill the other. This is why it’s so scary to our companion dogs — it’s hard-wired in them to think that anyone or anything holding them down like that intends to kill them. The ‘dominance’ seen in a wolf pack is a hierarchical structure, having to do mostly with control of resources. Wolves - and dogs - who are higher up in the structure do not fight for control — they are accorded it by the other members.
So, studied true wolf pack structure, you then see that CM’s take is entirely wrong, and based upon research done some 60 years ago on packs made up of unrelated wolves thrown together by humans — not actual packs in the wild.
The language of primates (humans) is entirely different than the language of canids, wild or domestic. Its difficult to imitate, and therefore dogs don’t understand it very well we attempt to ‘imitate’ a dog. And yes, their behavior is different to. But, think of it this way: My language and behavior is extremely different from someone living in France or Germany. Does that mean I can’t study to try to find a compatible way to communicate without making them angry at me for any social faux pas?
Of course it doesn’t, and why? Because we can LEARN. And, so can dogs. All organisms learn in much the same way — think back to your high school science classes. The science of learning crosses all species: I can easily learn that if I touch a hotwire, it will hurt — and I will learn it in exactly the same way that a horse learns not to touch the hotwire, or a dog, or a cat or any other sentient being (even a caveman! ).
That’s what the science of learning and behavior is about: how ALL organisms learn. When you use the science of learning and behavior in order to teach, you can teach nearly any living creature.
Think of how well CM’s methods would go over with a cat, for example. Not great, but he’s a lot bigger than a house cat so he could physically overpower it… unless of course, it were a Lion or one of the other big cats. How about a whale? Can we watch CM train a whale? Or, a chicken? Or a goat? Or, teach an autistic child to ice skate?
What I saying is that it’s easy to learn enough to be able to overpower a being and force them to do what you want them to do, whether it’s a dog or a child. Trainers who know how to use the science of learning and behavior can train ANY animal or person, and they often do (my cats and bunnies are trained to do all sorts of things…). And, many of the best dog trainers I know have backgrounds in teaching children, especially LD or disabled kids.
Learning is learning. Maybe CM should apprentice with a behavioral scientist?
Pat Miller (I think!) wrote a book called “Click To Calm” that I reccommend to RB. It is a book that teaches people how to fix their dog’s aggression problems using the positive folks’ methods. It is a reference I have recommended to my own clients as we dealt with their dogs’ aggression problems ranging from guarding toys to dogs in the Red Zone (a very dangerous dog, for those of you not familiar with Milan’s terminology). It is by no means the ONLY book out there, nor is it the best. It IS widely accessable and easy to digest, as well as very effective, hand in hand with positive reinforcement based training.
Another book I like is called “Breaking Bad Habits In Dogs.” Again, it is easy to find and easy to understand and put into practice. You might like that one better, as it’s more of a compromise between our two schools of thought, leaning more towards the more humane and equally successful non-aversive techniques. It has some chapters on dominance and aggression and is another reference I send my students to with some techniques I have used with my private clients whose dogs have such problems.
You have been given a lot of solid evidence against your case. No one has said that everything Cesar Milan does is wrong. In my opinion, he has a very solid foundation and I do think his heart is in the right place but I dislike some of his methods. He would be an outstanding trainer if he did take a course in behavioral science, one I would stand behind without reservations, because I do think he believes in bettering the lives of dogs. However, when one sees results in methods they are accustomed to, they rarely seek further; something along the lines of “If it’s not broke, don’t fix it.” However, I don’t believe the end justifies the means. That is the heavy handed folks’ justification.
My argument, then, is that if you can achieve the same results more humanely with new techniques, why continue the old way?
P.S. I love ML’s post!
P.P.S. I love ML’s post because it is intelligent and not a ‘blinders on’ argument. I think part of what is so consistently frustrating about RB’s posts is such an obvious, stubborn prejudism. While Jo has held her ground, her arguments and beliefs are founded by solid, evidence-based science and RB bases his on one man and one technique. Expand your horizons! One vital function in all successful species is the ability to adapt!
Also… the whole ‘whisperer’ thing annoys me - if you read the horse whisperer book, the ‘whisperer’ inspires trust form the horse, and helps the horse do what we want it to, with the fear taken away. Cesar does not do this. There’s no understanding or trust going on. It’s pure muscle. Works for some things, not for others.
CM doesn’t need to apprentice with anybody. His methods work and work well. His show is on in way less markets than Victoria’s and still gets better ratings. His books sell very well.
Cesar NEVER discusses anything about WOLF PACKS! His experience was based on observance of wild Packs of formerly domesticated dogs that run free on the streets of Mexico.
Cats, lions, whales, chickens, goats, autistic children…I think you are losing your mind lady. Cesar is a Dog rehabilitator…not sure what your point is nor do I care.
You positive only folks need to get over yourselves!
Do you bother to read the posts above of people who are using his methods successfully?
Jo, Why don’t you go to Victoria’s Animal Planet Web site forum and give advice to the multitudes of people posting desperately for help with their dog problems? Either Victoria is too busy or doesn’t care about responding to anybody there.
Thank you for not posting my last response. By not posting, you let me know you fear posting my response and agree with me and that all of my points are valid and they hit a nerve with you!
Thanks Again!
Good luck with your Anti-Cesar rhetoric!
OK “rb”
No one ever said CM’s methods don’t work. It’s a fact that punishment works to suppress behavior. The issue with punishment is that it must be used correctly in order to obtain LASTING change, which is NOT what CM (as well as many other trainers) does. Think about it… how many people do you see who walk their dogs on a prong or choke collar ALL THE TIME because the dog pulls without it. That means that they dog didn’t learn anything from the leash corrections — it only associated it with the collar being on, so learned not to pull only when the collar is on. Isn’t the point to use the collar only for training then not have to use it anymore?
Moreover, the point is, are the methods humane? If you have to continually apply force and/or coercion to an animal or person in order to get them to do what you want them to do, is that humane? Is it morally acceptable?
According to law in most states, if a dog owner is caught on hanging their dog until there are physical signs of cyanosis and hypoxia, they will be brought up on abuse charges. But, if a trainer does the same, ‘in the name of training’ — it’s not abuse. Why is this okay?
You are sounding more and more ludicrous Jo. I know of know trainer that hangs a dog until it shows signs of cyanosis and hypoxia.
Not sure who you are referring to, but It is certainly not CM that advocates the use of a choke or prong collar all the time. He uses and advocates their use as training tools only.
If you actually watched the show on a regular basis you would already know this just like you would know that his Pack theory is based on observance of domesticated dogs that ran free on the streets of Mexico…nothing to do with wolves.
And I guess you miss the multitude of cases that he does not use any physical corrections. I guess you missed all those episodes too.
Probably the only case you ever saw was a clip on youtube of a partial episode of a very vicious dog that would have been euthanised as the trainers the owners tried before CM had suggested them do.
The problem with, “The Dog Whisperer” is that people don’t realize that it’s a show. Some viewers think that they can learn how to train their dogs simply by watching the show. That’s like trying to learn the guitar by watching MTV. But on the other hand, trying to assess CM’s methods by watching his show is also overly simplified. There is no way a person can correct behavior problems in 10 minutes. Obviously, there are other things taking place.
People may not agree with CM, but you have to admit that he is demonstrating the correct way for a dog to act.. He is demonstrating to people what is and is not acceptable behavior from a dog. And I would think that all dog trainers are beneftting from this message as more and more people realize that they need professional help with their dog.
As far as prong collars go - correctly used, they do not choke dogs nor can they cause damage to the dog’s throat. They should not be put into the same category as a choke collar.
http://www.askdryin.com/dominance.php
It was Emma Parsons who wrote “Click to Calm”. Pat Miller is the author of “The Power of Positive Dog Training”, which, together with Jean Donaldson’s “The Culture Clash”, I highly recommend. The problem with all the Cesar devotees is that he often makes errors in reading dog behavior, and applies a one size fits all solution. Everything, to Cesar, hinges on position in the pack. Well, I hate to tell you but “dominance” is more complex, and fluid, than you want to believe. Dogs are not wolves, despite their being genetically related, and do not live in nearly as structured a hierarchy. The dog that wants to be the first up the stairs doesn’t always care who occupies the highest resting spot. And, it’s relatively easy for humans to learn some simple positive techniques to teach a dog both deference and self control, without having to coerce or correct it all the time. The beauty of positive training is that the dog is not discouraged from offering novel behaviors, this is it easier to teach the dog to do complex behavior chains. My dog knows that if I don’t click or say “yes”, she needs to try another behavior until she gets the right one. But, she isn’t afraid to try - that fear of trying is actually what makes some correction trained dogs seem so obedient. They don’t like to move on their own, lest it result in a correction.
Wow, wish I could go back and edit my typos, lol, but now I have my second cup of coffee in my hand…
Anyway, I think that positive trainers get a bad rap because there are so many inexperienced ones out there, largely due to the rise in training courses and APDT pushing the education mantra (which is fine, but new trainers need to pay their dog handling dues, too). Their lack of confidence perpetuates the myths about positive trainers being unable to work with aggression because they can’t do so. However, there is no shame in passing a dog along to a more experienced behavior professional. There is certainly some shame in professing to be able to “handle any dog” if all that means is that *you* can subjugate it for the moment, but the owner still has a liability on their hands.
I guess Animal Planet is not stuck on this Positive only movement seeing that they have brought back 2 Traditional Training shows…In the Dog House and Good Dog University. Good to see that they are not close minded.
You Positive Only folks always give names of Authors and Trainers that you think are so wonderful. Why don’t you or the the APDT put together a show that demonstrates your way is better than traditional methods. With lots of money behind your organization and the many Trainers out there, you would think you could find one good trainer and put together a good Positive only tv show to go up against the Dog Whisperer instead of expending so much energy and time denigrating the show and Cesar Millan on the Internet. I guess that is the way Positive Trainers deal with training methods that they disagree with.
I think the statement Anne made, “…it’s relatively easy for humans to learn some simple positive techniques to teach a dog both deference and self control, without having to coerce or correct it all the time.” is very telling. It seems like the Postive Only people think the debate is Positive Only vs. Postive Never. Just because a trainer isn’t Positive Only doesn’t mean they never use Positive techniques. My trainer uses both.
Waiting for permission to go through a door way was accomplished without negative training techniques. However, teaching one dog not to attack my other dog required more aggressive techniques. Was it hard to watch? Yes. But it was even harder to watch one dog getting mauled, and harder still to deal with getting bitten.
IMHO, the most important thing is for dogs and their owners to get trained. I see so many dogs leading their owners. I see so many dogs that are going to get into trouble - it’s just a matter time. A variety of training methods allows dog owners to select the one that the feel most comfortable with.
You got it Jeff.
The Positive only folks come off that it is their way only. Not the attitude to have when you are trying to get others with opposing views to embrace your way.
Their are many different trainers and training methods and there always will be the same way there are many different teachers and teaching methods.
If you want someone to embrace your method show that your way is better without resorting to criticism of others methods.
Terry,
You asked the following question: But how does this method apply to teaching a dog to NOT do things?
Operant conditioning trainers (aka “positive folks”) will tell you about the above is to teach an alternate behavior. If you don’t want your dog to jump on you what you do is teach it to sit or lay-down or whatever alternate behavior you choose. For “Not-Barking” you have to first mark the barking and then teach the command for “do bark” then you can work on teaching “quiet” or “no-bark”.
As you say - dogs don’t really understand an absence of something - therefore turn it into something the dog can understand.
Caesar reminds me of school teachers that use fear and intimidation as their “quick and dirty” method of motivating students. It’s easy, most people can do it, it gives the administrator a feeling of power and authority, and it is very old school (Uncle Matty). Caesar did not invent this method, he is simply the most masterful marketing machine at promoting it. Too bad! For more educated and patient folks, thoughtful and kind behavior modeling is a better way to build a working relationship. I admit when I didn’t know any better I trained harshly at times in the past. What a mistake. I now have a national competitor and he is a dream dog to work with thanks to a little patience and training FOR ME!
For not barking you can reward the dog for barking then ask for it as a command. You should see the look on their faces. You want me to bark? This makes it work and eventually it is tedious for them if you ask for it enough so they start to think twice about it. A deeper and more important question is WHY is the dog barking? Is it boredom, lack of exercise, anxiety. Answer this question and you are halfway there to solving the problem of barking.
Actually, dogs DO understand absence of a reward. I use it all the time when I’m teaching my Rocket Recall class. That is within the negative punishment quadrant. A “negative punishment” reduces behavior by removing something the dog perceives as good.
My Aussie routinely does clicker training demos for my classes, in which the absence of the click/treat prompts her to change strategy and offer a different behavior in the hope that it will be the right one. If dogs didn’t understand that concept, we would not be nearly as successful at free shaping exercises, and those are the very exercises that we use to teach dogs complex tasks, such as “go find my keys” or “turn on the light”! Service dog trainers now routinely use clicker training (i.e. positive reinforcement) to teach those skills - they have not remained in the dark ages!!!
The people who blindly follow Cesar Millan, without the scientific education of many of the people here:
http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html
do themselves (things could be much easier) and their dogs (things could be much more pleasant) a disservice. But, of course, it’s very hard to argue with a pop culture icon groupie, just as you cannot argue religion or politics with some people. What I can’t figure out is how they can make the statements they make without first having attempted to live by our principles, put our training methods into practice in a serious way, and maintain an open mind while doing so??? Conversely, many trainers who now take a positive approach, were doing the Cesar thing thirty years ago - and have moved on to what we do now, why? Because it works, and is less stressful and more humane for the dogs.
Hey Anne, are you saying that one training techniuque fits all dogs? That all dogs are going to respond the exact same way in the exact same time frame as clicker training? And how effective is the positive only approach when dealing with dogs that have already developed bad habits? My experience is that it is much easier to teach good behavior than having to overcome a bad habit. But you start out by saying you do use “negative reward” by removing something the dog sees as good. So if you are willing to use “negative reward”, then isn’t the argument really the degree of “negative reward” that you are willing to use? Again, my experience is that different dogs become stressed by different things. One dog can be stressed by thunder while another dog doesn’t react at all to loud noises.
The problem with the Anti-Cesar people is that they fail to see anything good coming from his show. At the very least, he is showing the public what is good and bad dog behavior. The basic problem that I have with Cesar is that he makes dog training, particularly with aggressive dogs, look easy - too easy. He sets expectations that are too high for the average person. There is no way that the average person can take an aggressive dog and remove the aggression in 10 minutes as Cesar is able to do.
Instead of acting like Cesar is pariah, how about acknowledging the positive things he does? There is nothing wrong with saying, “we like that he is teaching people acceptable dog behavior and some of the things that can lead to bad dog behavior. We just disagree with his methods”.
If you want to attract people to your methods, then a simple “our method is less stressful and just as effective” and then prove it to them when they get in the door. But no one wants to hear that they are being “inhumane” to their dogs.
And my experience is that trainers that use “correction”, are likely to use other methods of training as well (such as clicker training). They have a broad array of training techniques that they match to the individual dog.
Hey DBS - in addition to bordeom, lack or exercise, anxiety, maybe the propensity to bark is part of the breed? Maybe since Fox terriers were bred to flush the fox from it den by barking wildly at it, it is more likely to bark than say a Lab that was bred to retrieve ducks during the hunt - and barking might not be a highly desireable quality in a dog that is meant to sit quietly in a hunting blind. Or say a hound that was bred to howl when it was hot on the trail of prey to alert it’s owner?
But it’s nice that you have a national competitor and I’m sure it’s 100% because of you. It has nothing to do with the dog. It was only because of your patience and training. I’m sure that you could take any dog of any breed and achieve the same level of success.
I’m glad to see the practioners of the new, enlightened methods are above elitism, snobbery, and jealousy. More Education? Please. I’d settle for someone who had a little more humility.
CUSTOMIZED TRAINING IS BEST FOR ANY DOG
At my training center, we customize our approach to each dog, which is why we require people to get a few private lessons before they begin training as part of a group with a pack. With young, nervous, or shy dogs, we use food, treats, toys, and other forms of positive motivation. With scared dogs, we build confidence through urban agility using equipment such as park benches, beams, and stairs and running. With truly aggressive dogs—those that aren’t aggressing out of fear—we apply more pack leadership concepts. Different breeds display different genetic temperaments. For example, if you have a retriever, the cross you may have to bear is his tendency to put everything into his mouth. With a terrier, you may be challenged by more digging and barking. A border collie may exhibit a strong herding instinct and nip at the heels of family members. It helps to know the strengths and weaknesses of your dog’s particular breed and train with those characteristics in mind. I usualy help my clients to understand theyre dog’s innate tendencies and teach them to redirect the behavior in a positive direction. It can be argued that dogs in theyre natural environment do not communicate and manipulate by witholding or giving food for another pack members cooperation. But food can sometimes be useful to distract or re-direct a dogs attention. What may interest some people is that BF Skinner (operant conditioning)was doing research for human pscyhology and never did research on dogs. Although humans learn through operant conditioning it would be cruel to reduce us to simple creatures when we are capable of sacraficing our lives to save another life, even knowing this would be self inflicting “positive punishment”. It is also inhumane to not take into account that each species has its own natural instincts and structure that it lives by. Yes we all learn by operant conditioning, but all living organisms are more compex then a learning theory can possibly teach you. P.S Not all P.h.d animal behaviorist agree with each others philosophies just like dog trainers dont always agree with each others.
Joint Press Statements and Supporting Organizations
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/index.php
Problems with aversive dog training techniques
UK animal welfare, behaviour, training and veterinary organisations1 are warning of the possible dangers of using techniques for training dogs that can cause pain and fear, such as some of those seen used by Cesar Millan, who has announced a UK tour next year.
The organisations have joined forces to voice their serious concerns about techniques which pose welfare problems for dogs and significant risk to owners who may copy them. These concerns are shared, and the statement supported, by similar organisations around the world2 and in continental Europe3.
Aversive training techniques, which have been seen to be used by Cesar Millan, are based on the principle of applying an unpleasant stimulus to inhibit behaviour. This kind of training technique can include the use of prong collars, electric shock collars, restricting dogs′ air supply using nooses/leads or pinning them to the ground, which can cause pain and distress. The use of such techniques may compromise the welfare of dogs and may worsen the behavioural problems they aim to address, potentially placing owners at considerable risk. A number of scientific studies have found an association between the use of aversive training techniques and the occurrence of undesired behaviours in dogs.
The organisations believe that the use of such training techniques is not only unacceptable from a welfare perspective, but that this type of approach is not necessary for the modification of dog behaviour. Dog trainers all over the UK use reward-based methods to train dogs very effectively. Where dogs have behaviours which owners find unacceptable, such as aggression or destruction, qualified behaviourists achieve long term changes in behaviour through the use of established and validated techniques of behaviour modification without subjecting dogs to training techniques which may cause pain or distress.
We urge dog owners to carefully consider the help they choose to train their dogs or tackle behavioural problems. Anyone can call themselves a behaviour expert, but we believe that only those with a combination of appropriate qualifications, up to date knowledge as well as skills and experience should be treating dogs, and should only do so in a way which does not put the welfare of the dogs at risk.
Further information on:
* the misconceptions which underlie the use of aversive training techniques
* the development of behaviour in dogs
* the problems associated with the use of aversive training techniques
* finding a suitable trainer or behaviourist
can be found at: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org
1 Dogs Trust, The Blue Cross, Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA), The Blue Dog, Wood Green Animal Shelters, World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA), The Kennel Club, Raystede Centre for Animal Welfare, Canine Partners, UK , Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour (ASAB), Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC), Association of Pet Dog Trainers, UK (APDT, UK), UK Registry of Canine Behaviours (UKRCB), Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group (CABTSG), British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA) and British Veterinary Association (BVA).
2 Australian Veterinary Association (AVA), Australian Veterinary Behaviour Interest Group (AVBIG), American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB), American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB), The International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC) and The Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers, Inc. (CCPDT)(USA).
3 European Society of Clinical Veterinary Ethology (ESCVE), European College of Veterinary Behavioural Medicine – Companion Animals (ECVBM-CA), the Flemish Veterinary Working Group on Ethology (VDWE) and Norwegian Association for Pet Behaviour (NAPB) Norsk Atferdsgruppe for Selskapsdyr (NAS).
More information about organisations supporting this press statement can be found at http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org
Hey, Jeff,
ALL organisms function the same way when it comes to learning. ALL organisms learn by classical conditioning, operant conditioning, extinction, etc… Plants bend toward the sun because it works to get them what they need. Any behavior that is rewarded by getting the organism what they need or want will be repeated, and as repeated, will become habit. At the lowest point, that is truly all there is to it…
Okay, so maybe I’m a little biased, but if you are looking for an alternative to the Dog Whisperer, an alternative to Cesar Millan look no further than this site featuring The General aka Michael T. Patton.
http://dogtv.com/astounding-offleash-pit-bull-training-michael-calls-out-the-dog-whisperer/
or
http://dogtv.com
I can do things that Cesar Millan has no idea how to do. And I can do them with pit bulls or any other type of dogs. And I can do them without relying on collar or shock corrections of any kind. I am coming on strong, like a hurricane that cannot be stopped!
–
this is michael
reporting live…
WOW all I can say is so many people r so closed mined, almost eveyone on here can olny see there point. Jo and RB BOTH of you get over yourselfs. When it comes down to it your both right and your both wrong. You don’t use aggesive training on a dog who dosen’t need it, but if a dog is try to bit me or hurt me damn rights I will hold him/her down till there calm.
As for not looking at wolves in learning about dogs, I readly don’t understand that, don’t studys say that dogs r 95% wolf? So why wouldn’t we look at then?
I just wanted to add my two cents. I have had dogs growing up. Most living out their lives with me. The last dog I have was a rescue. I already had a dog so the one that came last got told pretty quick their position. Since I watch Cesar’s show I applied some of the techniques to the rescue dog. Success! The rescue dog behaves much better than the other dog. The techniques? Being calm/assertive. I never hurt my dog to follow any of what I have seen on Cesar’s show. And yes,it is a tv show and I understand how shows are put together. The issues my dog had were food aggression,aggression toward our cat, and chewing everything. With a sideways look I give to the dog it moves away. I don’t have to touch the dog or even get up from where I’m sitting. Anything the dog has in its mouth I can say “release” and the dog drops it. Here’s the funny part about the cat problem..by not focusing so much on the dog and not giving the dog attention when the two are in disagreement the problem loses it excitement. They(both dog and cat)move on. (Ok instead of two cents it was a little more…..Thanks for the forum.
Re not looking at wolves for dog behavior, it can be a guideline but not the bible. Wolves are wild. Dogs have been domesticated. They don’t live the same lives. Also, if you do look closely alpha wolves don’t “roll” other wolves. That’s a kill move. Submissive dogs OFFER the roll as a way of communicating that they mean no harm and recognize the alpha as boss. If a wolf is gonna roll, he’s gonna kill. In my opinion, ANYONE who “rolls” a dog deserves to get bitten. Mr. Milan included. I do not like his methods at all. His show is not long for this world from what I hear. He has NO formal training or education folks. He is NOT someone to be admired. His you can be a good leader w/out using his methods. Really watch the dogs on his show. If you know anything about canine body language those dogs SCREAM fear and anxiety. I saw one clip online where he rolled a dog - it was resisting and when he was done, the poor dog was a panting, drooling mess - and he was calling it “calm/submissive”. I wish I could smack him.
Well-
I have to say I believe the disclaimer at the beginning of the show is simply to say “If you walk into a room with a growling dog and expect it not to bite you because you’re acting like cesar and you get bitten don’t take this show to court”
Use your common sense people.
Honestly I’ve tried allot of Cesars advice on my dogs in the past and have had the most positive of results- if the man doesn’t know what he’s talking about then it must just be pure coincidence.
Spend your time doing something besides being jealous of a man who spends his time trying to help dog owners and happened to get famous for it….